Rolling deep with Kara Swisher through Aspen

Kara Swisher is an editor-at-large at New York Media, where she hosts its “On With Kara Swisher” podcast and co-hosts its “Pivot” podcast. She’s also a contributing writer for New York Magazine and contributor at CNN, where she’s a panelist on the “Chris Wallace Show.” 

Previously, Swisher, who was at Aspen Ideas Festival on Wednesday, hosted the “Sway” podcast and was a contributing columnist at The New York Times. 

A journalist who has covered the internet since 1994, Swisher co-founded the independent media company and tech news website Recode, later acquired by Vox Media, hosted the “Recode” podcast and was co-executive editor of the online publication “All Things Digital.” The author of two books about AOL, her latest is a memoir: “Burn Book: A Tech Love Story.”

She gave an exclusive interview with The Aspen Times

AT: When we hear stories about AI, it always sounds like it will solve all our problems, like medicine. But what do you see as concerns about AI?

Swisher: I think the idea of being catastrophic is silly. It’s not going to end the world. It’s not going to save the world. I think that’s the mistake of making this binary choice. And, as in most things in life, it’s complicated, right? And so I think what’s important to keep in mind is, how can we mitigate the potential disasters and how do we emphasize the potential for good or for good things like drug discovery or cancer research or all kinds of things, to discover how do we get it so that we can discover every single technology has a downside? The question is, what can we do to anticipate the downside? And then what can we do to protect against it, the vast majority of people knowing there will be some damage no matter how you slice it, just like with cars or electricity or any other technology? And when we say mechanized farming is bad, yes, but it also fed a lot of people, right? You know, so you have to have that kind of broader point of view.

AT: I wonder what it will do to our civil liberties because of the amount of data that’s already out there.

Swisher: I’m sorry, that ship has sailed a long time ago. But, you know, many, many years ago, 20 years ago, Scott McNealy said, “There’s no privacy, get used to it.” And he was right. We willingly give up our privacy by carrying around the phone every day, right? Using it, utilizing it, and putting up all kinds of data. So, until our public officials pass privacy laws, we’re f**ked, right? But of course, we need to demand that from them as voters. So, it’s our problem, we’re the problem also.

AT: You have the pulse on so much more than just tech. So, what are the four or five important messages you would want readers to know? What do you see that other people aren’t thinking that we should get out there to the public?

Swisher: We need to demand that our government regulate tech. I mean, demand or vote people in who are willing not to take their money. It’s not a tech problem at this point. This is what they do. They grow. Grow is what they do. And they will grow at any cost, often to the expense of the citizenry, right at our expense. And so, just like every other major industry, whether it’s planes, trains, automobiles, or pharmacies, they get regulated. And so why have we allowed the most valuable companies in the world not to pay their fair share of taxes, the same thing with the people who own them, and to not be regulated for what they can do, what they can and can’t do with our information? I find that astonishing. And at this point, again, it’s not the fault of these companies that this is their being who they are, which is shareholder-driven. It’s up to us. And the officials we elect need to do something about it. It doesn’t ruin innovation to regulate it. It’s such a canard for these people.

They’re like children who say ‘I need to eat sugar all the time. Because I need to; I won’t be as creative if I don’t eat as much sugar.’ It’s just nonsense.

AT: Okay, so regulating tech is number one to you. What’s two?

Swisher: Consider your role in the system. You can complain all you want about addiction to technology, but if you’re addicted yourself, you have to make moves for you and your kids to parent better, to understand what it’s doing to you. The problem with tech is everybody’s dependent on it for their jobs, livelihoods, and social life. … And you have to think about that, especially for your kids.

AT: So you’re saying parents need to stay on top of their own behaviors because the problem with tech is everybody’s addicted, right?

Swisher: It’s not like the kids are doing this and see that. Use it for the benefits it has versus just the negative. Figure out ways where it could be a positive force in you and your kids’ lives, of which there’s plenty, but you also have to not lecture kids about your own f**king problem.

AT: Stay on top of issues you think busy people want to understand and what you think is important. You get to talk to everybody. Everyone returns your phone calls!

Swisher: Stop acting like losers, like the fascists and other authoritarians are going to win. Stop assuming they’re going to win. They never win. In all of history. They always get pushed back. And we sit around like Trump’s a good example. He’s lost every election since 2020. Lost them whether they’re abortion, everything. Every side he’s on has lost one election one after the next, yet we’re like, ‘Oh no, he’s such a winner.’ He’s such a f**king loser. He’s a loser. Like why do we treat fascist behavior like it’s the winning move? We have to be just as adamant about protecting our democracy.

I find that liberals always act like they’re the weakest people. And they need to start punching people in the nose and stop being apologetic on the whole woke thing. What’s the opposite of woke? Asleep. Start to make arguments about why it’s good. DEI is good. What’s the opposite of DEI and diversity? Homogeneity, equity, unfairness, exclusion. … I’m sorry, that seems pretty f**king dire. So, start to take the narrative back. People, on the other side, are good at creating the narrative. Well, that’s not the narrative; you have to do your own narrative and stop shrugging your shoulders and saying ‘Oh f**king no.’ It drives me crazy. People have more power than they think.

AT: Do you have any predictions for the elections?

Swisher: I think Biden’s going to win. It’s going to be close, but I think he’s going to win. And it’s nonsense that we have already given up. F**k, there are six months to the election, and there is plenty of time to convince people.

AT: OK, can you go for a fourth area you want people to consider?

Swisher: Be nice to your kids. Stop being sh**tty to your kids. Support your kids. I have kids; they’re great. Stop complaining about the young. Start focusing on your own problems.

AT: As a father whose daughter’s about to start college-bound, any areas you recommend with AI coming down the tubes?

Swisher: It’s a time to “score,” make mistakes, and go to stupid protests you regret later. And articulate ideas that may or may not be right. Do whatever interests you. It’s a privilege to go to college.

AT: And, what areas of focus are important if they are thinking about going into tech with the AI? Is it computer science?

Swisher: Whatever interests you. I think the big question everyone’s got to ask, whether they’re in tech or anything else, is, what do you want to make in this world? What do you want to make? When you answer that question, everything will be a lot easier. What don’t you want to make?

AT: What are your core values?

Swisher: Life is short. You really, really don’t have that much time for all the bullshit. You really don’t. It’s too short to be so wrapped up in stupid drama and relentless worrying. Your time is limited. You should value it like gold.

AT: What is the biggest a-ha you’ve had in the last year or so? What have you learned? Anything? Seen anything?

Swisher: I learn something every day.

AT: You’re curious — something that just opened your eyes?

Swisher: I have recently spent a lot more time paying attention to history. There is this expression, “History doesn’t repeat itself. It rhymes.” It really does. When you start to look at the struggles of the past and really have a knowledge of it, you start to see patterns. And the other thing is, I’ve been looking at a lot of pictures of space. I just finished a book called “North Woods,” which everybody should read. It asks, “Do you understand the march of time?” It doesn’t care about you, but not in a bad way. It doesn’t care about you in any way. So you have a lot of freedom.”